Welcome to your online discussion of Native Son!
Together with members of your book group, you’ll be reading Native Son over the next several weeks. Although you're not required to take notes while you read, it would be wise to keep track of important events and characters for your own clarification. You are, however, expected to participate regularly and thoughtfully in an online discussion of SEVEN essential questions.
Here's how it works:
Divide your book roughly in half. You need to have read and blogged about these halves by the due dates below.
There are two kinds of posts in this discussion: response and comment.
Response = direct response to the essential questions
Comment = comment on someone else’s posted response or comment
- Post at least THREE responses for each half of your book (SIX overall). Try to address to a variety of essential questions over the course of your blogging.
- One of your six responses can be a “free-response" post.
- Post at least THREE comments for each half of your book (SIX overall).
Due dates:
- Post your first set of responses and comments by Thursday, May 16.
- Post your second set of responses and comments by Wednesday, May 29.
Essential Questions:
- Why is it difficult to see our own privilege & prejudice?
- Does everyone experience some form of privilege and prejudice? If so, how?
- How do we overcome the adverse effects of privilege and prejudice?
- In what ways are privilege & prejudice related?
- How do we become prejudiced?
- In what ways does this book refute the notion of the “single story”?
- How does the story (setting, characters, plot, etc.) reflect or illuminate the current state of race / gender relations in our country? Have we made any progress as a society?
** Free-response option: Address another issue/episode/or passage in the book that you find
significant for any reason.
Assessment: To earn maximum credit, post thoughtful responses that are at least a few sentences in length—and carefully proofread! Do not misspell characters' or authors’ names! Also, be sure to include specific references to the text (either details or short quotations). Page numbers, too, are always helpful.
On page 118 Bigger reflects on how and why he and his family are discriminated against: "Why did he and his folks have to live like this? What had they ever done? Perhaps they had not done anything." This really applies to our fifth essential question; "How do we become prejudiced?" Bigger wonders if it is because "[N]one of them had ever done anything, right or wrong, that mattered much" I find it interesting that Bigger thinks of it in a way that doesn't apply to his race. His theory is mostly focused upon their achievements of the future and past. I wonder if the reason he is aiming his attention on this theory is because he doesn't want to associate his prejudice with a permanent part of him, like his race.
ReplyDeleteI find this quotes fascinating. It shows the Bigger and his family don't want to admit they can't change the prejudice against them. They blame the prejudice they receive on themselves, because they have internalized the prejudice.
DeleteThis is my post
DeleteOn page 88 Jan and Mary are talking in the car about black people: "Say, Jan, do you know many Negroes? I want to meet some." "I don't know any very well. But you'll meet them when you're in the Party." "They have so much emotion! What a people! If we could ever get them going..." (End Quote) This quote really relates to the 7th question about race relations today. The way Jan and Mary talk about black people is like they're different, or special. They treat them with a sort of auora around them. This relates to the unconscious bias people have today, where they don't mean to be racist, but they have unknown biases towards people.
ReplyDeleteI agree. However, I think that in modern day, people are less blatant about it. Then, (in the 1940s), people didn't realize the worth of their words as much. Someone in this day and age would never say "do you know any Negroes?" as Mary had. People now air on the side of caution when talking to and/or about people of other races, especially black people because of our... tricky history. People nowadays are very conscious of what they refer to black people as. Most people use African-American. No one today would use "negro" or the "N" word because it is thought as a racial slur, or socially unacceptable. But many people still act like there is "a sort of aura around them" as you said above. I agree that today we have unintentional biases toward others but I think it's worth mentioning that we as a society have taken a step in the right direction because we are more conscious of our actions than we were 80 years ago but we could still improve by not acting as if we are so insanely different because of an outward physical attribute.
DeleteThis was my comment
DeleteThis was my post
DeleteOn page 119 Bigger reflects on killing Mary: 'He was black and he had been alone in a room where a white girl had been killed; therefore he killed her. That was what everyone would say anyhow, no matter what he said." What Bigger is thinking relates to the 6th essential question about the "single story". Even though Bigger did kill Mary, if he hadn't and something happened to her he would still be blamed. This is a broad theme that relates to all black men. White people assume that black men are violent, and that in a crime the black man is responsible. Bigger realizes this prejudice towards black men and reflects upon it in that quote.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you. In a TEDtalk I recently watched, Paul Bloom explains that black men who are more "prototypically" black are more likely to be sentenced to death. Since this is a recent study, Bigger obviously didn't know this statistic however I think he definitely knows that since he is black he is more likely to be sentenced to death, and I think that if he were white he would be more confident and "accidentally" tell everyone that he murdered Mary because he would be less likely to get the death penalty.
DeleteThis comment was mine
DeleteThis post is mine
DeleteOn page 129 Bigger talks about "The White Force": "To Bigger and his kind white people were really not people; they were a sort of great natural force, like a stormy sky looming overhead, or like a deep swirling river stretching suddenly at one's feet in the dark. As long as he and his black folks didn't go beyond a certain limit, there was no need to fear that white force." What Bigger is talking about relates to the 3rd question of overcoming prejudice. Bigger shares that the way to not receive prejudice is to stay away from the "White Force". As long as you don't go near it you won't receive prejudice. This is a terrifying thought as he makes it seem like you will be swallowed up by the force if you cross the "limit".
ReplyDeleteI agree with you completely and think it’s an excellent point you brought up. I’d like to expand upon how you said it’s a “terrible thought”, which it really is. I was thinking of how Bigger’s method for overcoming prejudice by avoiding white people really doesn’t “overcome” prejudice. Sure it keeps him away from it temporarily, but it doesn’t solve the issue. This is equally as terrifying as the example you gave, because it means that as long as people take the easy route of ignoring or avoiding the issue, it will never truly be solved.
DeleteThis post is mine
DeleteThis reply is mine
DeleteThanks for reminding us of that reference. You're right: "the White Force" dehumanizes whites and lumps them all into this inexorably malevolent entity. We see this motif later in the novel when Bigger's in jail and feels the force of hatred all around him, like a palpable presence. That's one reason why it's so startling when Jan steps out of that angry mass of white faces and tries to befriend him.
DeleteI think that Bigger when keeps telling himself that no one will suspect him because they are "blind" is for the same reason people tell single stories. Single stories are stories told over and over until people eventually believe it. Bigger tells himself that he can't possibly be caught so long as he keeps his story straight. This is because he's scared to get caught because he think he will get the death penalty. Although I'm not positive, it's definitely plausible that Bigger will get caught. I think that his idea that everyone is blind will eventually blind him. His single story about himself will cause his mostly inevitable incarceration.
ReplyDeleteI definitely see where your thought process is in that both single stories and Bigger’s thinking make people or himself believe a certain thing that’s not true. However, I’m not sure I agree with it relating to single stories. Single stories are more about how a societal outlook towards someone/a group of people is based off of limited information and is closer to the idea of a stereotype. What’s going on with Bigger is that he’s trying to convince himself that he won’t get caught if he sticks to his story because no one suspects the “unintelligent Negro.”
DeleteThis post was mine as well
Deletethe reply is mine
DeleteWhen reading Native Son, I have noticed in several instances in which Bigger has shown terrifying confidence and severe anger issues. Richard Wright has wonderfully molded this character so as to intrigue the reader. Within the first 45 pages Bigger has already terrified his sister with a rat to the point of her passing out, fought and nearly killed his friend, got kicked out of the poolroom for good for destroying the pool table, nearly robbed a store, and never once did he think; "Hey, maybe I should take a deep breath and think about my actions and their consequences." (Impulsivity without thought of consequence is actually a sociopathic trait.) He was confident enough to look Doc right in the eye when cutting up the pool table on page 45. Occasionally after the fact Bigger realizes he shouldn't have acted so rashly he just shrugs off his actions and doesn't seem to care. In fact, there are several times where he gets so excited about what he is about to do or what he has already done that he starts shaking. Such as before he fights Gus. Or when Britten is questioning him about Mary's whereabouts. He trembles with excitement when he knows he has the upper hand and when he knows something that no one else does. I think he enjoys watching people suffer because he tells Bessie that he killed Mary only to keep her on his side. Overall so far, Bigger's character is devious and captivating and really makes the story worth-while. He is corrupt enough to make one uncomfortable but human enough to empathize for him. You get so into this character that rightfully deserves to go to jail for burglary and murder but you hope that he doesn't so that you can see what he does next what deceitful lie he will concoct next. Richard Wright has done an overall wonderful job so far to make well rounded characters with layers of emotions that cause many emotions in you as well.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you. Not only has the author made a captivating and interesting character with sociopathic, borderline psychopathic tendencies, but also drops subtle hints as to why he is the way he is. These clues include how the author describes his thought process when he becomes extremely emotional, “she was staring at him and he looked away in confusion. He was glad when she left. That old bastard! What’s so damn funny about me? I’m just like she is” (51). These subtle clues of how he internalizes the way white people interact with him as discrimination or bias helps build upon his character.
DeleteIt's interesting that you qualify him as psychopathic or sociopathic. He's a solid neither, exhibiting no traits that would give him a psychopathic personality. He doesn't exhibit the types of superficial charm and inflated sense of self that come with psychopathic tendencies. He better fits the type of an antisocial personality disorder if we have to classify him.
DeleteNever mind, that was wrong, the points where I disagree can go the other way, and the other facts of the case determine that, yeah, pretty clearly a psychopath. My mistake.
DeleteLast 2 are mine
DeleteThe initial post was mine
DeleteThe first reply is mine
DeleteThe plot of the novel reflects how in the real world African-Americans are forced to resort to crime in order to sustain themselves. We see this in how Bigger and his friends have a history of robbery in order to make money, as well as how Bigger sees an opportunity to make money after accidentally killing Mary. In both the story and real life, this is because of the oppression of black people and the privileges granted to the whites. This is shown on page 199. Wright writes, “[Bigger] had heard that Mr. Dalton owned the South Side Real Estate Company, and the South Side Real Estate Company owned the house in which he lived. He paid eight-dollars a week for one rat-infested room… Mr. Dalton was somewhere far away, high up, distant, like a god. He owned property all over the Black Belt… he would rent houses to Negros only in this prescribed area, this corner of the city tumbling down from rot. In a sullen way Bigger was conscious of this. Yes; he would send the kidnap note. He would jar them out of their senses.” This shows how white people have control over black people’s lives, allowing these white people to easily oppress them, and this power that they have incites challenge. Challenge incites conflict, and conflict breeds catastrophe (in the form of crime).
ReplyDeleteI agree with this completely. I also thinks it's very interesting how, even in crime, black people are afraid of white people. They know that if commit a crime against a white person the cops will care, where if they commit a crime against a black person the cops won't care as much. The fact that many black people have to resort to crime also helps back up white people's prejudice thoughts. They see the crime that black people commit and think of them as "uncivilized". That also explains why Bigger feels the way he does about killing Mary. He knows that he has killed a white, rich, powerful girl and no one besides him knows. It gives him great power, especially in his towns circumstances.
DeleteI agree. I think it's worth mentioning that he and Bessie stole from Bessie's employers. When the rich white people were away they would sneak in to their houses and burglarize it. I wonder if Bessie needed the money too. She seems definitely better of than the Thomas's, she has her own apartment, she pays her own bills and rent and she seems to be in a better neighborhood. I think since she has more than one job cleaning rich peoples houses she makes more money. So I wonder why she helps Bigger. (This is a bit of a side note but it's worth mentioning,) Bigger only uses Bessie for sexual purposes, and Bessie wants company and someone to buy her drinks and distract her from the stress of her life.
DeleteThe last comment was mine
DeleteOriginal post was me
DeleteFirst comment mine
DeleteSuch an interesting comment about Bessie, Bryn. I think she's the most pitiful character in the novel, even though she does a fair amount of that (self-)pitying. Why does she stick with Bigger? Like you suggest, she's wicked lonely. And she seems to have zero self-respect. A sad casualty of Bigger's story.
DeleteIn the novel there is two characters that stand out to me that have seemingly overcome the adverse effects of privilege and prejudice, and I believe they’ve done this by overcoming their biases towards black people. The characters I’m talking about are of course Mr. and Mrs. Dalton.
ReplyDeleteOn page 63 Peggy says, “‘You know, he does a lot for your people.’
‘My people?’ asked Bigger, puzzled.
‘Yes, the colored people. He gave over 5 million dollars to colored schools.’
‘Oh!’
‘But Mrs. Dalton’s the one who’s really nice. If it wasn’t for her he would not be doing what he does.” This shows how the Daltons have overcome the negative biases towards black people so common amongst white people. This results in them overcoming oppression and discrimination (the effects of privilege and prejudice) by offering jobs for black people and donating money to them. This is also shown earlier when it’s mentioned how Mrs. Dalton helped the previous chauffeur get an education and eventually a job, which she later starts doing with Bigger.
It's also interesting how in the quote above, Peggy refers to blacks as, "your people," showing that she doesn't think of them as humans. Mary Dalton, however, says they're "human, just like us." It's cool to see how different members of the same household are.
DeleteI thought it was interesting how Mrs. Dalton brought this up. I think this relates to what we learned in class about unconscious bias. The way Mrs. Dalton said "your people" was interesting because she put black people into 1 category. She makes it seem like Bigger owes them in some way because Mr.Dalton donated so much money. In reality the reason why Mr. Dalton had to donate that amount of money is because of white people's prejudice towards black people. If white people were more accepting then Mr. Ryder wouldn't have had to donate to "his people".
DeleteFirst reply was mine
DeleteOriginal post was me
DeleteI'm glad you bring up the Daltons' philanthropy toward black people. Yes, at first it seems as though they may have overcome the typical white-on-black prejudice, but doubts arise for me as the story progresses. After all, aren't they sustaining the master-servant dynamic and giving money instead of really getting to know black folks? Do you think they're salving their conscience?
DeleteNow that I've finished the book I can see how the Daltons, especially Mr. Dalton, haven't overcome their discrimination and oppression towards black people. This became especially apparent to me on page 457. The author writes, "You rent houses to Negroes in the Black Belt and you refuse to rent to them elsewhere. You kept Bigger Thomas in that forest. You kept the man who murdered your daughter a stranger to her and you kept your daughter a stranger to him... And Mr. Dalton, a decent man, tried to solve his feelings by giving money." After Max said this I realized that the Daltons haven't really gotten past their racial bias or overcome their discrimination towards black people, and that they only do the things they do to help ease their conscience.
DeleteOne way in which privilege is related to prejudice is how the people that have certain privileges over others are generally prejudiced against those inferior to them. This is seen on page 227 where it says, “He knew that all whites thought that all Negroes yearned for white women.” or on page 186 where the author writes, “‘Well, you see ‘em one way and I see ‘em another. To me, a nigger’s a nigger… You got to be rough with ‘em, Dalton. See how I got that dope out of ‘im? We wouldn’t’ve told you that… [Black men] don’t need a chance, if you ask me. They get in enough trouble without it.’” This shows how white people as the privileged group prejudge black men based solely off of the single stories associated with them.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteThis post is mine
DeleteI find it interesting how Bigger seems to live in constant denial to enable him to go through his life. When talking about his living situation, he thinks that he has to not confront it, or he'll kill someone. When thinking about white people, he always blames someone else for him being scared of white people. From a character standpoint, it shows that he doesn't like to blame himself for anything, and also puts himself first. So based on this I'm expecting similar behavior through the second half of the book, such as saying that his murder of Mary was OK.
ReplyDeleteThis was mine
DeleteAddressing number seven, we have clearly made advancements in our thinking concerning racial roles since the 1940s. On page 283 the newspaper states "[The police] feel that the plan of the murder and kidnapping was too elaborate to be the works of a Negro mind." They not only called Bigger a "negro," but they also explicitly said that Bigger was incapable of the same level of intelligence as white men. They came to this conclusion because Bigger, of course, is black. Today we acknowledge that African-Americans are clearly just as smart as the average white American. Page 282 also exhibits the white peoples' complete disregard for African-Americans when it says: "Several Negro men were beaten" and again when the paper explains: "Many windows in the Negro sections were smashed."
ReplyDeleteYes, so much of the inequality and oppression is manifested through intimidation tactics, like terrorizing black communities. The general disregard of black life is also evident in the way the murder of Bessie is considered incidental compared to the murder of Mary Dalton. And, of course, the rush to execute Bigger is, in part, an intimidation tactic, too.
DeleteIn response to question five, Bigger and the other black people living in the Black Belt become prejudiced towards white people because of their living conditions and the environment in which they experience those conditions. This is explained on page 458 when Max addresses why Bigger is the way he is. He says, "Consider, Your Honor, the peculiar position of this boy. He comes of a people who have lived under queer conditions of life, conditions thrust outside the normal circle of our civilization. But even in living outside of our lives, he has not had a full life of his own. We have seen to that. It was convenient to keep him close to us; it was nice and cheap. We told him what to do; where to live; how much schooling he could get; where he could eat; where and what kind of work he could do." Max explains how the living conditions that were forced upon Bigger and his people by the white people have affected them. Due to this systemic oppression of the black people, they adopted certain prejudices towards white people, just as white people had towards black people. This shows how the relationship between privilege, prejudice, oppression and discrimination are like a cycle. Privilege causes oppression, which creates prejudices, which causes discrimination, further fueling privilege and racial/class division.
ReplyDeleteI agree with this response. I think this helps to explain why Bigger and other blacks have internalized the racism they have received and why they don't always speak out. I think the white people have also internalized their privilege and don't know that they are doing anything wrong because they themselves are used to seeing people act racist and being racist and have begun to think of it as ok. I think it's a vicious cycle.
DeleteI also agree, Ben really captured what I wanted to say so I'm not going to repeat anything.
DeleteSorry, something went wrong, that comment was from me (Bryn if it continues to not work)
DeleteRichard Wright does a good job of addressing essential question number three. Early on in the story, (specifically back on page 63) Peggy mentions Green. Green, despite working for the Daltons for ten years, he "took a job in the government." Later, when Bigger is talking to Max on page 409, when Max asks what he wanted to do with his life Bigger responds with a list of his wishes and ambitions. But he never followed through because those of color weren't given nearly as many chances as whites. I think that with this Wright was trying to show that the amount of effort one puts in, the amount of will one applies, affects what happens in your future. Bigger and Green started out in practically the same place. A poor black boy in Chicago during a time where black people really weren't respected. However, Green was willing to put in the effort and go to night school. Green was willing to put in enough time that it didn't matter where he started from so long as he continued to put in this time. Whereas Bigger didn't want to join the army even if it meant digging ditches. Bigger was never willing to put the work in. Bigger never once made an attempt on his own to see if he could gain rank in the navy even if he started out washing dishes. The point is, Green put in so much energy that Bigger did not. Bigger did not attempt on his own to become a better person. His mothers' nagging was the only thing that caused him to go to the Daltons home that day. Richard Wright was trying to show that the way to overcome the bad parts of prejudice is to put in an effort to get out of said prejudice. Those who see they are being affected by other peoples opinions and can still put in the time and energy to live their lives as a good citizen are also the ones who can "overcome the adverse effects of [prejudice]"
ReplyDeleteIn response to question one, one reason why it's so difficult to see our own privilege and prejudice is because of how we dislike the feeling of guilt. This is mentioned on page 453 when Max is speaking at court. He says, "Of all things, men do not like to feel that they are guilty of wrong, and if you make them feel guilt, they will try desperately to justify it on any grounds." We find it difficult to see our own wrong-doings, like our prejudice and the negative effects of our privileges, because we hate to feel guilty. We dislike it so much that we will adamantly deny or completely ignore the problem.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you. I like the way you interpreted this quote. You also did a good job of explaining your thoughts and how they tied into the question.
DeleteI think this quote from Max shows how he feels all the white people may feel about black people. That they can't admit they are doing wrong to blacks, so they continue to treat them bad. I also think Mr.Dalton feels this way, and that may be why he donates so much money to black organizations.
DeleteI agree. I like that you implicitly explain single stories in this response. Although I never connected this specifically to single stories as you did, I realized the significance of this quote when I read it.
ReplyDeleteJan scares me, when Bigger is in jail awaiting trial for killing Mary, and Jan forgives him because of the discrimination blacks have faced. That seems out of character for Jan, as in the beginning all we're shown is that he loved Mary, but this is making me doubt that, and wonder if there actually is a communist conspiracy.
ReplyDeleteA scene I thought was interesting was when Bessie's body was brought out. The prosecution brought out the body as a show. They wanted to get a response from the crowd and show that Bigger could kill. But the way they just showed the body, and just rushed it back after they killed showed that they didn't really care about Bessie. It shows they wanted to show the white people what bigger was capable of, and what he did to Mary. The white people in the crowd saw bessie and thought of Mary. Bessie was only a prop to show what happened to Mary.
ReplyDeleteGood point, Ben! I was also struck by the fact that Bigger says he felt sorry for Bessie in that moment, for the same reason. He knew they were just using her as "a prop," to shock the jury. It's clear Buckley didn't care about her and misunderstood the nature of her relationship with Bigger.
DeleteA scene I thought was telling was on page 365, as Bigger says "He would have gladly admitted his guilt if he had thought in doing so he could have also given in the same breath the sense of deep, choking hate that had been in his life, a hate that he had not wanted to have, but could not help having" This relates to the 4th question. This quote shows bigger has a hate because all his life he has been hated by white people. This hate against him has caused him to hate, causing a vicious cycle. It shows the privilege of white people makes them prejudice towards black people, and in turn makes black people hate. Bugger ends up hating other blacks though because he realizes that he can't change how the white people view him, but he can gain power over other blacks. Once he kills Mary though, he thinks he's better then everybody because he, a simple black, has killed a white, rich, girl.
ReplyDeleteI don't think that's what they meant by it though
ReplyDeleteI found Max's method of defense interesting. Their defense was blaming the oppression that lead to Bigger being the way he was. That it was defense against the oppression he faced. I think that this is an unusual defense. It seems like no one except Mrs. Dalton can see blacks as just people who you should stop oppressing due to them being just people. Everyone seems to have to blame something for the action of black people. Bigger accidentally killed Mary, but purposefully killed Bessie, and they won't punish him as a person but something that doesn't understand it's actions.
ReplyDeleteNick, it is an unusual defense and a very tough sell, especially at that time and in that courtroom. Well, in any court of law, probably. Yes, he's trying to focus attention on all the societal wrongs that contributed to / caused Bigger's crimes. He's asking for mercy on that account, not exoneration. And to the extent that he treats Bigger as more a representative of his race rather than an individual, who, at the end, does arrive at an understanding of his actions, I agree that he denies Bigger independent agency.
DeleteBack when Bigger was questioned by Britten, it's impressive to see how he deflects suspicion away from himself by associating Jan with the communists. He's playing the slow-witted servant that he always finds himself playing in front of white people, but this time he's using their own preconception's against them. The most amazing thing is all these calculations came from an accidental death, not a premeditated murder on his part.
ReplyDeleteYes, interesting that the most important thing Bigger ever did—the actions that made him feel like a man at last—were accidental. "I never wanted to hurt nobody" (496), he tells Max. It's like fate swept him to that defining moment, and then he had no choice: "I felt I had to; that's all" (496).
ReplyDelete